Wingman Training

[Teedog]

Here's a link for Wingman Training. It is based on Robert L. Shaw. He authored Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering. Robert Shaw was a Naval Aviator from 1969 to 1977. He finished his Military service in the US Naval Reserves and then later the U.S. Air Force Reserves. There's alot of good info in here. He flew just about everything from F-4's, to F-14's, to F-16's. From 1975 to 1977 he also flew the famous Vandy 1 F-4 from VX-4 in Point Mugu NAS, CA. http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/galle...ges/f4/c182.htm
Today Vandy I is still station at Pt Mugu NAS, but now it's an F-14D with VX-9 .
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/AWA1...GJT,%205-97.jpg

By the way we will be using this is our Manual as well. Our first training will be on formation flying which is very important when it comes to "Wingman" Flying.

I don't know what day this will be. Hopefully some of you will come up with some ideas on a date.

MANUAL

http://www.savlan.com/475FG/Warbirds%20Onl...se%20Manual.pdf

[skernsk]

Interesting pics .. what is 'Vandy I'?  Is it a special configuration or something?

[Teedog]

Vandy 1 is just the Plane #........

Alot of Navy Aircraft will use something like that (ie Bloodhound 1, or Bloondhound 2)........ All the planes in VX-4 were called Vandy (1,2,3, and etc), But Vandy 1 was always all black with the Playboy Bunny on the tail. Pt. Mugu NAS was close to were I lived for over 25 years...and you could always see that black bird in the air.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/milita...4c-118173-3.htm


Also Vandy 76 was a another aircraft used by VX-4.... I remember see it fly when I was young. http://www.mozeyoninn.com/Aircraft/MilPhot.../1Shots011c.htm

[Teedog]

Here's another Pic of Vandy 76

http://www.mozeyoninn.com/Aircraft/MilPhot.../1Shots011b.htm


Vandy 40 (Target Drone)
http://www.mozeyoninn.com/Aircraft/MilPhot...s/1Shots006.htm


The New Vandy 1 (F-4) with it's final flight with the new Vandy 1 (F-14)
http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sit...hoto-vx4-01.htm

Vandy 32
http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sit...hoto-vx4-03.htm


Also VX-4 has been replaced by VX-9... and so the bunny no longer flys.
http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sit...hoto-vx9-05.htm

[daddog]

Dracer and I back in Warbirds winged together a few times. One of the ways we worked in the Historical Arena was one of us would watch the right 180 degrees and the other the left 180 degrees. It worked pretty well for spotting cons.

Ever hear of that?  

[Puke]

Skernsk,
The USN does the radio comms slightly different from the USAF.  Typically, the squadron has it's own callsign such as "Showtime" for VF-96 Fighting Falcons or "Rock River" for VF-161 Chargers.  And then, they will use the nose number on the aircraft to differentiate between each other so you can have Showtime 100 flying wing on Showtime 112.  However, when the USN flies into other airports or works with other agencies, they'll use a system similar to the USAF and will then change to numbered in order such as Showtime 1 for the leader, Showtime 2 for the next guy, etc.  I guess VX-4 must use "Vandy" as their squadron callsign and Vandy 01 would then be marked 01 on its nose.  The USAF usually changes squadron callsigns per mission...for example, the Wild Weasils in Desert Storm I would use brands of Beers such as Budweiser, Pabst, etc.  

Daddog,
I have two Tactical Manuals for F-4 Phantoms and they do split up the search parameters though its slightly different with those aircraft because they are two-seaters.  But in Aces High with that bright red icon announcing your location, it's hard to sneak up on anyone and the closure speeds aren't that great so that if you have your head on a swivel, you should be okay.  

But on the topic of wingman tactics, I'd actually prefer to be spread out.  Most people usually latch onto each other's tail and follow close behind and to the side.  When you are too close, the both of you are basically one aircraft in terms of a fighting unit but with some distance from each other, if you get jumped, you can more easily allow your wingman to assist you by turning into him and dragging the bandit behind you in front of your wingman.  Thach weave comes to mind.  Other tactics too.  It'll be fun to see some changes in this regards and will be interesting to see what Teedog comes up with.



 

[skernsk]

I agree with Puke on spreading out.  When we are not in contact I like to be close to my lead.  But I find myself more involved in making small corrections to the formation than scanning for contacts.  

When in battle I stay between 500 and 1K from the lead so that I not too far away if he has trouble.  

As for radio.  We yap too much on the radio.  I know that is part of the fun for me - listening to you guys hooting and hollering, but when you NEED to say something often you can't.  All I do is tell the lead when he is on a bogie that he is clear.  Wanker and I had a good sortie last Friday and I didn't say more than two or three words to him at a time .. but he knew I was there and that he could focus on the guy in front rather than worry about the guy behind.

Teedog,

I am sorry but I have yet to read the whole manual.  It is on my to-do list but so is the kitchen reno.  So far I still have all my fingers  but now I'm down to the fancy mitre cuts and trim so look out.  

[Teedog]

I have a few ideas, but always open to others. One thing for sure... We have to come up with a tactic that will work in AH!!!

But I agree with Puke, when we merge with Enemy Cons... We need to move into a combat spread, but until then we need to be able to fly in a formation that can get us into that combat spread quick and easy.

What I'm thinking right now we'll have a Element Lead and a Wingman in a Wedge formation. Once we see the enemy approaching... we'll change into a side-by-side Combat Spread (around 700 yards).

Also, keep in mind... This will be a relaxed tactic. No hardcore stuff......... just some basic info so we're all on the same page... Remember we need to have fun  :ban:  

[Puke]

There has been a time or two I got left out to dry because my calls for help were lost amongst squadron chatter on the radio.  It's a mixed bag though because we come here to have fun and part of that includes the joking around on the radio and we really shouldn't be taking this too seriously.  That's why I like the Dogs, because we aren't goose stepping and saluting each other and playing little generals with the score being all that matters but rather it's a group of friends coming together to have some fun.  I think it's quite difficult balancing those things.

Element Lead?  Oh no, USAF terms for something we all know the USN refined while the USAF continued with welded-wing 4-aircraft formations even through the Vietnam War.    ;-)

 

[Teedog]

There has been a time or two I got left out to dry because my calls for help were lost amongst squadron chatter on the radio.  It's a mixed bag though because we come here to have fun and part of that includes the joking around on the radio and we really shouldn't be taking this too seriously.  That's why I like the Dogs, because we aren't goose stepping and saluting each other and playing little generals with the score being all that matters but rather it's a group of friends coming together to have some fun.  I think it's quite difficult balancing those things.

Element Lead?  Oh no, USAF terms for something we all know the USN refined while the USAF continued with welded-wing 4-aircraft formations even through the Vietnam War.    ;-)

I know, I know... I should have said "Section Leader" instead of Element Leader, but I didn't think we had alot of Navy guys.
You're right about trying to balance things out, Puke. but If we have a few basic ideas then some of us won't be left out in the cold.  :unsure: .... Of course nothing of this info "has" to be used.  But it might be fun to try it.

Of couse you guys know I don't take things very seriously. I like to joke around as much as anyone... and some you might think I joke around too much  :smash3:  This is the reason I love flying with the Mongrels..... I love Listing to Maddog whine about people from California, Wanker talking about Fluffy,  People picking on Swager, TeeeRex saying "yeah-yeah", and  Me picking on Canadians, LOL
 :w00t:  I love to tease people, I guess it comes from my days of playing Baseball.  :devil:  

[starbird]

Luftwaffe used 2 man groups called a rotte. I'm not sure if thats the name of the group, or the formation. Anyhow, it doesn't really matter.

They would generally fly a few hundred meters apart, side by side. the reasoning being they could watch eachothers low 6 for fighters sneaking up on them. It also gets you into position to try bracketing incoming fighters, or not depending on what the leader wants to do.

2 rotte's make a schwarm. The leader is in front, his wingman is at his 4-5oc. The 2nd section leader in on the 1st leaders 7-8, and his wingman is on the 2nd leaders 7-8. I might have that backward.

That would allow the schwarm to stick together and attack bomber streams, or split up into 2 sections of 2.

I havn't been reading up on section tactics lately, so I'm a bit rusty.

[Teedog]

Yeah, The German's used the Combat type spread all the time... I didn't know it was called the rotte. The rotte is like the Loose Deuce. I believe I read someplace that Focke Wolf Pilots used it all the time.
I like the Loose Deuce because is makes the wingman much more active in the attack... Which sould work great for us.

 

[Nifty]

*puts on the XO hat and prods the Training Officer*

ok Teedog!    You gonna pick a day of the week that we can start working on things?  (completely voluntary of course guys!)

[Teedog]

Oh, you want me to pick a day...LOL... Okay I say Wednesday Nights at  7:30 Pacific Time. Hopefully this will work good for all you. It's really the best time for me unless we do it later on other weekday nights or on Sunday evenings.

But I say we start on Wednesday April 7th at 7:30 Pacific Time.

Teedog

[Nifty]

how about 7 PT so it will coincide with the Snapshots in case we want to use the Snapshot for practicing what we've been training or is that still a bit too early?

[Teedog]

What time does Snap Shot Start? I thougth it started at 7:00PM Pacific???
Beside it's very hard for me to home from work by 7    

[Nifty]

yeah, 7pm PT is Snapshot time.

[Teedog]

Okay...maybe we can do some training after that. There's no way I can do any before then.    

[cup]

Rumour has it that Teedog prefers a whip for discipline as oppose to "a talking to" from the XO.


   

[Teedog]

Rumour has it that Teedog prefers a whip for discipline as oppose to "a talking to" from the XO.


 

 :wacko:  

[daddog]

LOL cup.  

So after the Snapshots Teedog?

 

[Teedog]

LOL cup.  

So after the Snapshots Teedog?

After the SnapShot would be great for me... If it's okay with everyone else.

I'm easy    

[Sour]

11 PM EST (or later) a bit late for East Coasters. My chit says I have
to back to base by then. Can we do a different night so it doesn't
interfere with Snapshot?
Sour