Looking to buy a pistol

[BigRat]

I'm in the market for a pistol this year.  Primary purpose would be home defence, but would also be used for target shooting. Looking in the under $750 range, semi-auto,  good knock down power, and light enough for my wife to handle easily (she's a health nut and a runner so it doesn't have to be real light).  Do you guys have any preferences? good bad ugly.

Thanks
BigRat

[daddog]

The primary purpose is home defense?
Forget the pistol. Buy a shotgun.
I have one that has a VERY short barrel for home, loaded with buckshot and then a 2nd barrel for when I go quail or dove hunting. The sound of a shotgun chambering will make 99% of all home invaders run away.

If you really want a pistol don't get something like a .357. It will just go though who you hit and then out of the house and into your neighbors house. Would suggest a .45. Fat, slow moving bullet.

[BigRat]

Already got a fairly short shotgun that I used for quail and dove, but it's not as handy as say a pistol in the top drawer.  Or as easy to transport in a car if me or the wife would be in a questionable area.  Was actually looking at .45,.40, or 9mm.  Especially .45 1911 style, but may be a bit heavy for the wife, a lot of those are pushing 2lbs in the full size models.  So many choices out there anymore it boggles the mind

 
BigRat

[BigRat]

Was looking at this



Taurus 1911-ALR, .45, 32 oz, 8+1, with rail for accessories, right around 600 bucks

what do you think?  Phyllis's brother is a cop in the Chicago area, and says you can't go wrong with the 1911's.  He of course really likes his Sig Sauer, but they are pricey.

 
BigRat

[Kansas2]

Might be kind of big for your wife's hand. Have you went to a gun shop and see how it feels?

[BigRat]

Not yet Kansas.  Just shopping around right now, I tend to research for a bit before I do anything.  I'll probably have her shoot something similiar (another 1911 frame, if I go that route) before I buy anything.  Just curious as to what you guys like personally?

 
BigRat

[Kansas2]

Maybe this will help some. Use the Gun Search.


http://www.davidsonsinc.com/consumers/subsites/dealer_home.asp?dealer_id=498699

[Flushed]

I prefer the Walther's. I own this one. It is a good Pistol for the ladies also.


http://www.waltherpistols.com/item/57011_Walther_Hand_Guns_Pistols_WAL_PPK_S_380ACP_3_35_2T.aspx

For a little more power

http://www.waltherpistols.com/category/594-Walther_PPS_Handguns.aspx

[ASAdog]

When suggesting a firearm for defensive use for someone, I always start with this:

1.  Reliability.

The firearm must be reliable, one you can count on to work every time. In a self defense scenario, reliability becomes real important. The truth is, even with well known manufacturers, sometimes, some models just have more “hick-ups” than other models.

2.  Ease of Operation.

Keep it simple. The less you have to do to run it and keep it running, the better. Smaller or less fit folks in particular sometimes have problems with manipulating slides or running malfunction drills; not insurmountable for most, with the right training, but can be a letdown if they become frustrated by the difficulty – plus it can be deadly, in self defense, if one has problems with operating their defensive tool.

3.  Use the most powerful firearm you can, while still maintaining a high degree of accuracy.

If one shoots a 9mm more accurately than a .45 acp, including rapid follow-up shots, than the 9mm is the better gun for them.

Something I have found to be true in defensive shooting is – Shot placement is King, adequate penetration is Queen, everything else is ‘Angels dancing on the head of a pin’. Decisive hits to vitals are what stops a threat, and all handguns take a back seat to rifles and shotguns for decisive hits. Handguns though are much handier to carry for defensive use over a long arm. I generally don’t recommend anything smaller than a .380 acp (with the best bullets/loadings available) for defensive carry, but the truism that a well placed .22 lr beats the pants off of a miss with a 12 ga slug still holds.

So what do I recommend? For most new shooters, hands down, it’s a .357 Magnum revolver.

Advantages

They’re Reliable. Using good quality factory, center fire ammunition, in a Smith & Wesson, Sturm Ruger, or Colt revolver, I have never had a failure to fire, feed, extract, eject, failure to fully seat a magazine, nor a magazine failure – ever, and I have fired tens of thousands of rounds (possibly over a hundred thousand rounds) through handguns. I can’t say the same with any make or model of semi-auto pistol.

They’re Easy to Operate. Revolvers are basic point and click operation. Reloading a revolver (with proper training, and using speed loaders) is no more difficult than reloading a pistol. Malfunction drill for a revolver is one step – pull the trigger again, for a pistol it’s three steps – slap the magazine, rack the slide, pull the trigger. If there is a second malfunction after the first malfunction drill, it gets even more complicated with the pistol – three steps for the revolver versus the pistols six or seven steps.

They’re Powerful. They fire the best on-the-street threat stop record ammunition for any handgun – the 125 gr semi-jacketed hollow point .357 Magnum. Ah, but the .357 is not pleasant to shoot for most new shooters. No problem though, because you can also shoot and train with .38 Specials in the same gun, which kick less and have less noise, while you’re training up to the .357, and a 158 gr .38 Special +P semi-wad cutter or hollow is a pretty decent cartridge in its own right for self defense – matching or nearly matching the street record of many of the better pistol cartridges, though not all pistol cartridge loadings.

Disadvantages

You only get five or six shots. There are a couple of seven and eight shot revolvers out there, but they are expensive and on the large size. In reality though, what’s the purpose here? Self defense, not assault. You need your handgun just to get you out of a bad situation so you can call the posse, and fewer than five or six shots statistically will do that. The average police shoot out, when revolvers were king, was 2.5 shots fired. Since pistols have supplanted revolvers, it’s jumped to four shots fired (and I suspect that’s due to a ‘Pull the trigger fast and often until the threat is down' mentality in LE training). I generally don’t travel where major gang activity and drive-bys occur; do you? And even if you do, chances of you getting more than one or two shots off is pretty slim in those situations. Heck, even the drive-by shooters only get a few shots off in reality, unless they’re using full auto. All you really want to do is get out of there, and use as few shots as necessary to do it.

Uh, I can’t think of any other disadvantages.

If your heart is really set for a semi-auto pistol, I’ll discuss those next. I like semi-autos, and I’ve carried both revolvers and pistols alternately with confidence. I just believe, based on my experience and training, that a revolver, especially a .357 magnum revolver, meets and exceeds the needs for most folks.

The most important things are the three I listed above, whatever you get.

Note: All  .38, 9mm, .357, .40, 10mm, .44, and .45 cartridges in typical loadings are likely to penetrate most if not all of the walls of a standard construction house – doesn’t matter which you choose. I’ve seen 12 ga #6 shot bust through a cinder block. Over penetration needs to be considered, but it’s mostly planning and training that reduces the risk.

At your service,

[ASAdog]

So, for semi-auto pistols –

1.   … light enough for my wife to handle easily…

Be careful with “light” pistols for women, especially if they are new to shooting - the lighter the pistol (other features being equal), the greater the felt recoil. Women generally like light pistols at first, up until they start shooting them, where they discover that the pistol is too painful and startling to enjoy shooting.

Case in point:

A friend of mine, Brad, in Arizona wanted to buy a home defense handgun for him and his wife Suzy. He was looking at light pistols because Suzy has weak wrists caused by an earlier illness. I suggested he and Suzy join me to shoot a variety of handguns before he bought one for the both of them.

On the range day I first handed Suzy a .357 Magnum Ruger GP100. The GP 100 is a medium-large all steel revolver. Being a .357 Magnum we could also shoot .38 Specials through it, which I did – standard velocity 158 gr lead round nose.

Suzy didn’t like the weight, but it wasn’t too big. After she fired the .38’s through it I asked how the “kick” felt. She commented that it wasn’t much more than Brad’s .22 pistol, which she enjoyed shooting.

Next I handed her a S&W Model 12 .38 Special revolver. The Model 12 is a medium-small alloy framed handgun known for its lightness. During the Viet Nam War era it was issued to pilots and female MP’s because of its lightness and relatively smallish size. Note though that it is the same size as a common standard police issue revolver of the era – the S&W Model 10.

Suzy liked it because it wasn’t too big nor too heavy. After firing one round in that gun, using the exact same type of ammunition she had fired in the Ruger, she put the gun down and said “It KICKS!”. She was no longer interested in shooting that gun again.

They bought a Ruger GP100. Within six months Suzy told me she had done a lot of shooting with it and it no longer “felt” heavy to her.

2.   … light enough for my wife to handle easily…

Light weight also tends to create a handling/manipulating problem for women using semi-auto pistols.

One of the problems I had in training many women on the M1911A1 .45 acp was getting them to pull the slide all the way back to effectively chamber the first round. The M1911A1 uses an eleven pound recoil spring as standard.

To get woman, who generally have less upper body strength then men, to overcome that eleven pound spring, unlock and tilt the locking barrel, ride over the pressure-to-slide caused by the awaiting round in the magazine, all the way back to the slide stop so they can “sling shot” the awaiting round into the chamber took some assessment and rethinking on my part so I could train them in a different technique. Even after learning the new technique, which was generally very successful, a few still struggled with chambering a round.

Now get this: Lighter weight pistols often use a heavier weight recoil spring - Often one to four pounds heavier, to maintain reliability of function!

3.  … Taurus 1911-ALR, .45, 32 oz, 8+1…

I often recommend a Taurus to folks on a tight budget, but with cautions.

The good-

Lifetime Limited Warranty

Often decent copies of the gun they emulate, for the price they ask

The bad-

In the past, Taurus quality control was cyclic – often good, sometimes not so good. You run an elevated risk of needing that extended warranty.

I’ve heard too many reports that their customer service can be spotty and can cause some costs and time that are less problematical with other manufacturers such as S&W, Ruger, Glock, Sig Saur, etc… (Colt, currently, is also showing less quality in customer service based on what I’ve heard). That extended warranty could be a pain in the a… to process, but they will eventually fix a problem.

Which pistol or pistols do I recommend? Next time….

At your service,

[BigRat]

Great Post ASA .  I actually made a long response to this yesterday but accidently deleted it .  Looking forward to hearing your recomendations, also thoughts on 1911's.

Thanks
 
BigRat

[ASAdog]

For non-1911's, the short list is

S&W M&P - I have shot these (all three calibers, and I liked them), and have many recomendations for this model. Several instuctors for one of the better training sites here in Oregon, Oregon Firearms Academy (OFA), highly recomend this Model. They've seen many of them used by their students (LE and Civilian), and a couple of their instructors use this model - one of the instructors has over 12,000 rounds through his with no problems.

Available in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 acp.

They apear to be very reliable, and one of the features I like is the interchangeable back strap; allowing a semi-custom fit for a variaty of hand sizes. It comes with all three sizes (S, M and L) of back strap included. It shots really well. I found the .45 acp version a little large for my hand, but the 9 and the 40 were great once I selected the appropriate back strap (M in my case) for my hand size.

MSRP for the 9 and 40 standard models is $719, for the standard 45 it's $758. I find actaul price to be $50 to $100 below MSRP.

Springield Arms XD - I've shot the XD40, and liked it, and have have many recomendations for these models. Again, several OFA instructors highly recomend this Model. They've seen many of them used by their students (LE and Civilian), at least one of the instructors uses an XD as his range gun and has no problems.

Available in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 acp.

They apear to be very reliable, and one of the features I like is the interchangeable back strap; allowing a semi-custom fit for a variaty of hand sizes. It comes with all three sizes (S, M and L) of back strap included. It shoots really well. I found the .45 acp version a little large for my hand, but the 9 and the 40 were great once I selected the appropriate back strap (M in my case) for my hand size.

They're selling for around $550 for the 9 and 40 standard models, and around $670 for the standard 45 model.

Ruger SR9 - I've only handled a couple, haven't shot any, but I loved its ergonomics. The first couple of years there were some problems, but Ruger did a recall and have fixed the issues. All new ones sinces early 2009 come with the fixes included as a productin modification. They now come highly recomended by LE folks that I know, but OFA instructors are holding out until they've seen more of them on the line.

AVailable only in 9mm at this time.

I like that it seems to fit a wide variaty of hand sizes as is, and with its lower bore axis-to-hand placement than many others it should be very good for follow-up shots.

MSRP is $565, but should be about $50 below MSRP in actual cost.

Glock - Glocks are great guns, but I find that all models are really too big for many shooters. Cost will be below $700 in most cases. I'm not saying much, only because you say your wife will be using whatever you get, and I just can't bring myself to suggest a gun that I know is too big for my hand (and I have an average size hand for a guy). Could she learn to shoot one - Yes. Will she ever be as good with it as one that fit her hand better - it would be a challange. They are very reliable and will take a lot of abuse, and darn I wish they fit my hand - but I shoot other guns much better than I do a Glock.

For 1911's in .45 acp

I love the .45 acp 1911A1 (and many civilian models of same) - my personal favorite semi-auto pistol. It fits a wide variaty of hand sizes, and in the better models they are very reliable.

The first trouble is, getting a good reliable one will probably get you above $750 (unless used and in good condition). The better ones (outside custom and semi-custom makes, such as Les Beare for example, which are very expensive) are made by Kimber, Springlield Arms, Para Ordinance, and earlier Colts (pre series 80, with some exceptions for the series 80 - but you have to know which runs, and I don't), but again you're looking at $750 - $900.

Second, having taught hundreds how to shoot the M1911A1, its not the gun for many new shooters, especially so for women new to shooting (funny though, new shooters are easier to train than many who "think" they now how to shoot, and I found women who have never shot the easiest to teach). It's not necessarily that they "just can't", but the training and shooter development takes more understanding.

Note: "Handgun Fit" is not what most people think it is. I was an Army competative pistol shooter, and was trained by the the U.S. Army Marksmanship Training Unit to be a pistol and revolver marksmanship intructor. Most shooters go by "how it feels" in their hand, with no knowledge of how it should "feel"; and besides, "feel" is not the characteristic that is paramount - fit is. I could try to cover proper fit (though written description is not as good as having an instructor show and check you), if you would like.

There you go, my suggestions (though there are probably a few thousand other shooters that won't completely agree with me), The suggestions are made by me based on my experience as a former Army competative shooter, former Army marksmanship instructor, Defensive Handgun instructor, LE officer, and former plant manager for Kimber of America. Take it for what its worth - its free advice.

At your service,

[Cajun]

I have the Heckler and Koch USP .45 and love it.  The recoil is light for a .45 and it is very accurate.


If you want something lighter Sig Sauer has some excellent choices.  I have the P228 in 9mm.

Reliability

The SIG P228 is supremely reliable out of the box. Its reliability can only be matched by the P226 and arguably bested by the Beretta 92. These points are critical for several reasons. Weapons are often issued at overseas departure or destination points. This means that it may not be my personal P228 on which I'm relying. As my primary weapon, it must be totally reliable in all extreme conditions. Any maintained P228 is this in spades.

Accuracy

The best duty pistol is also extremely accurate. Stress under physical exhaustion or combat duress plays havoc with your shooting ability. I want the most accurate pistol possible to maximize hit potential under these extreme conditions. This is especially important when operating in an environment that contains hostile and non-hostile targets. A surgical shot may be needed to take out single or multiple threats, without hitting fellow operatives or innocent bystanders. It is also critical when facing a battle rifle-equipped hostile. Every SIG P228 I've shot is accurate enough to reach out and touch a target to 100 yards with confidence. This can't be said for many other popular pistols. The only popular service pistol that beats the P228 for accuracy out of the box is the SIG P226. Table One provides accuracy figures for my own stock P228 with a wide assortment of ball and hollowpoint ammo. Note the total average hand held five-shot group size at 25 yards: it's 2.80 inches. Conventional hollowpoint ammo, which included everything from +P+ 115 to 147-grain subsonic, averaged an excellent 2.60 inches!

[BigRat]

wow , thanks guys   great advice!  I'll be checking these recomendations in the future, as of right now my new vette is eating all of my money, who ever thought maintaing a 600+ hp vette would be so expensive .  But still planning on getting a pistol within the next year, so I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.  ASA you are like a pistol encyclopedia, your experience definitly shows   Cajun, I didn't know you were in LE?

 
BigRat

[ASAdog]

Big Rat:

You’re welcome, and thanks for the kind words.

With my suggestions - they’re like a belly button, everybody has one. Mine aren’t the be all and end all. They are based on my experience and training, but not on all available experience and training. The more I know about firearms and shooting, the more I discover how little I really know.

My thinking is: It will be your and your wife's gun, not mine, and must be suitable for both of you.  It is not necessary that it be suitable for me - except for the basic considerations. Therefore, my recommendations are for what I believe would be suitable for both of you.

I posted above that the most important considerations are “Reliability”, “Ease of Operation”, and “Use the most powerful firearm you can, while still maintaining a high degree of accuracy”. I believe these three considerations form the base for any reasonable recommendations for a defensive firearm.

These three considerations must be true for both you and your wife.

1.  “Reliability” of the firearm may differ between the two of you.

Example: Some folks have a problem with “limp wristing” (as it’s called) some semi-auto pistols. I find this problem often true for females with limited firearms experience (though I’ve seen some men demonstrate this problem also).

Higher recoiling pistols require the ability to “lock” the firing wrist so movement at the wrist doesn’t retard the cycling of the action at firing, which could cause a failure to fully chamber a follow-up round or cause an incompletely ejected case or a double feed. We can’t physically “lock” our wrists though, so what really happens is we use greater strength to limit wrist movement. Many women (and some men) currently lack the strength development in the muscles in the area that control the wrist. A change in firing technique may correct this for them, but not always. Developing muscle strength (if possible) will, but this takes time and exercise.

2.  “Ease of Operation” may differ between the two of you.

Some find thumb and or grip safeties a problem, others don’t. Some have no problem with cycling the slide, others do. A firearm that fits one may not fit the other (though the problems for a firearm a little small are easier to overcome than one that is too big). Some can find malfunctions drills almost second nature, others may stumble with these. “Trigger reach” is an individual issue. Etc…

3. “Use the most powerful firearm you can, while still maintaining a high degree of accuracy” may differ between the two of you.

One may find the .45 acp easy to fire well, the other may find a .38 Spl or 9mm the easier to fire well.

The bottom line is that often the one who has the better skills may have to compromise some (use a simpler system or less powerful round) to satisfy the needs for the one with lesser skills so that one firearm becomes appropriate in defensive use for the two. It is usually easier for the one with the better skills to adapt than it is for the lesser skilled one to adapt.

I’ll be available if you have any further questions, and I’ll try to answer with as little of my personal biases as I can.

At your service,

Note: I’ve never met you or your wife and I most certainly never trained with either of you, so I have to make some assumptions. I go by my experience with the issues I’ve seen with others in their shooting/gun handling development. You or your wife may not have any problems with operation or control, but on average I’ve seen the issues I bring up often enough to cause them to be something that believe needs to be considered.

[BigRat]

Thanks ASA,

I was brought up around guns, my Uncle was a sales rep for Winchester ammo for many decades and a professional trap shooter.  Being that he only lived 5 miles away from me, my cousin and I shot quite a bit at his place.  My experience is mostly with long guns though, pistol experience is very light, I'd say I'm competent but not good by any means.  My wife even less so, but I did take her out to shoot pistols at my Uncle's once while we were dating.  She did enjoy it.  Will get back with ya, once we actually start shopping

 
BigRat