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Author Topic: I could use some clarification.  (Read 440 times)
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Malap
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« on: November 26, 2008, 11:47:00 AM »

In the AH etiquette section of the trainers site it says vulching is considered bad form, but what about in a situation like last fridays FSO, where bandits were trying to T/O from the field we were trying to capture?
And what about HO in the arena? shooting bailed out pilots? and diving into a furball, shooting a bandit and pulling away?

Personaly i would prefer not to HO, as it seems blind luck who survives, not to mention not a great deal of fun.
I did get killed after i  took a bullet in the engine, ran as far as i could before it gave up and bailed, only to get killed by a pair of bandits as i drifted down in my chute.

I could have vultched a couple of planes, but didn't as i wasn't sure if i should.
Same with diving into someone elses furball.

What should i do?

Thanks, Mal.
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 12:37:07 PM »


My opinion, but in FSO all is fair.  It's a one life event and squads are supposed to be using common sense.  Our squad has been at both ends -- unfortunate to be landing/refueling and been the vulchers.  In a one-life event taking out a plane that is at a dis-advantage is the point, either through planning (allied birds longer legs, therefore attack later when the opponent is more likely to be refueling) or through luck.  The object is to destroy their cartoon planes.
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Malap
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 12:58:59 PM »

Oops, sorry it wasn't FSO, it was the sunday squad night. I just can't keep track of the days lol.
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« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 02:01:49 PM »

Those are good questions. Depending on who you ask you will get very different answers. In a nut shell our squad does not have any rules concerning vulching or HOing.

As far as FSO I agree with forHIM. If you can destroy enemy planes on the ground go for it. We might have a few in the squad that would frown on that, but I think for FSO the majority would agree that anything goes in FSO. For me personally, as it is a single life event, I am not about to let someone reup that could shoot down one my my squadies later on. And if there was a stack of them on the rearm pad I would drop an egg or launch a rocket on them in a heart beat. The planes on the ground can always exit before they are destroyed. If not, such is life. Smiley Having said that once (a few years back) I had a great 1 on 1 fight with a 109 pilot. I was in a Spit. We went at it for several minutes. I did not have any help near by and he did not either I would assume. Finally I got a good burst in and took out his engine. I let him ditch as I flew over him slowly. Can't remember who it was, but those moments are rare in FSO. Usually you want to kill them all so they can't do the same to you or your squadies.

As far as the MA goes that is a different animal.

If we are trying to capture a base I see nothing wrong with vulching. Again I think most would agree. You don't want to let those aircraft get up so they can possibly destroy your troops that can capture the field.

If you are not trying to capture field, but are just looking for a fight you can let them up and then engage them. Of course if their ack is up that is the sensible thing to do or the enemy ack will shoot you down. If the field ack is down then it is your choice. Sometimes I have let them up and get some alt before I drop in, other times I have vulched. For me I guess it has just depended on my mood. Others in our squad would never vulch an enemy aircraft unless we were trying to capture the field. They just feel it is wrong. As the guys in our squad and see what they say. I would guess about 1/2 would not vulch a field we were trying to capture.

As far as the HO. Again you will get many different answers. Some in our squad NEVER do and feel pretty strongly about it. Others like myself sometimes do and sometimes don't. I don't usually in FSO because it is a one life event and I tend to fly a bit more cautious. In the MA you can just reup your plane. Smiley In the MA I usually take ANY shot I can get. If I have 4 cannon's VS some machine guns I will likely take the head on shot knowing I will likely come out ahead. I get called all kinds of names and have insults tossed my way when I HO. I don't care and usually laugh about it. Most of the better sticks say you give up an advantage when you HO. Many good sticks and veteran players say it is poor ACM and really look down on those that do HO. I suppose that is true, but generally I give better than I get in a HO so I am more often than not willing to try. Wink

Untimately it is up to you. You will never get any grief from me for vulching or HOing. I don't pay your $15 a month and will never tell you how I expect you to play this game. There are plenty of others in the game  Roll Eyes who would be happy to tell you how to play if you will let them. Wink
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Ghosth
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2008, 07:13:46 AM »

Well vulching is a tricky one, I have at times indulged, and at other times refrained.

If we are 2 minutes or less from a solid field capture, you bet I'll kill them on the runway.
The field is capped, town is down or almost down, troops are on the way, its the smart thing to do.

To kill someone on the runway just for the easy kill, now thats a harder nut to crack.
Again the answer is going to depend on the situation. But smart players know not to take off from fields that have enemy planes circling overhead. Dieing more than once like that reverses the karma, if your silly enough to do it twice in a row, well you have it coming.

On the HO, first lets clarify what is a true HO, and whats a forward quarter shot in a manuver fight. Which has a stigma attached to it and why, and which doesn't.

The true HO is one where both planes are nose to nose at a distance, and both drive in going for the shot.
A lot of new people only learn this tactic, and how to continue to run, not turn and fight. Hence the stigma attached.
Its a low skill no ACM required tactic, and if its all you can do, it sucks.

However, say you and I meet on opposite sides, see each other and 5k out, and turn at each other.
I duck under you as I come into range, thus dodging any possible HO shot. We both immelman Up & over and meet again at the top. Granted we are both nose to nose, but thats NOT a HO, its a hot merge or a forward quarter shot in a turn fight.
We are BOTH doing ACM, trying to get behind the other guy, and there should be NO stigma attached. First guy to get around gets an advantage on the shot and thats as it should be.

Now you'll hear a lot of guys CALL that situation a HO, mostly because they just died. A good pilot seeing this situation coming as he comes around will kick some rudder, change his pitch input, to spoil the other guys shot.  Because its NOT a HO and go situation, there is and should be no stigma attached. Both planes have an equal chance, both pilots have options.

This tends to be a hotly debated subject, and a sensitive one for me.
Partly because I feel that it is a lack of education on the Trainers Corp that results in this debate.
If we had done a better job earlier on of defining what is a HO and what isn't, what is accepted, and what shouldn't be.
Frankly we wouldn't be in this mess. But for most of you thats water under the bridge.

So at what point do you seperate a "good" hot merge from the "Bad" HO. Myself and some trainers like to put that boundry out about the 3k point. If you extend beyond 2k just for another chance to HO, the stigma should reattach itself to your actions. If you are flying in a pony, extending to about 2k is required before you can reverse in order to get your guns on him and keep him from trying to shoot you without the possibility of you shooting back.

However some pilots are firmly convinced that if both pilots have their guns on the other guy its a HO. And that if they die to that move they have a right to complain loudly on 200 or private. Again mostly because of THEIR lack of skill, ability, maturity, or ego. But then they don't want to hear that now do they.  Smiley


In FSO, there are no rules other than the clearly stated ones. 1 life for all, follow orders, stick with your squad, do your best.

If there is a problem, say nothing, let the CM's deal with it. Or bring it to Daddog, teerex's or my attention.

Malap I think your solidly on the right path.

However there are a few notable exceptions to remember.

Anytime I have 2 or more enemys engaging me, with no friendly inside of 3k to help, the gloves come off. Your outnumbered, you take ANY shot you can get, at ANY time and don't sweat it.

Any time I see 2 friendlys on a enemy I prefer to stay clear. They don't need the help, and he has it bad enough with 2 on 1. He sure doesn't need a third con dropping in on his 6 to worry about. This is where class shows, and you start making your reputation for good or ill. Thats not to say I will never do this, I stole a nice kill from daddog and baumer last week.
But that was more about stealing a kill from them than any desire to gang bang an enemy.

A 1 on 1, where its unsure who's winning I'll ASK the guy, "need help?" "You ok?" or something similar.

If he wants help my preferred tactic is to buzz the con once, but not fire. Get him to break, equalize the fight, then zoom back up out of it.

If he is behind the enemy, I'll shadow along, stay high, and watch for incoming planes.
Keep his 6 clear and warn him if any other enemys show up.

If its a furball, its first come first served, teamwork tactics WILL earn you friends.

Apologizing for stealing a kill from someone if you really didn't mean to, will also help.

I keep a mental list in my  head of people that have repeatedly helped me out, or shown class.
Guys that consistently clear your 6 or give you "good" check 6's. Squadrons that have shown up JUST at the right time to tip the contest in our favor. Guys that don't try to jump in on an enemy that you've fought with from 8k to the deck to steal your kill. In short the guys that I like to have in the sky around me. Class acts, solid folks.

I also keep a list of those who have recently done me dirt.
Kill stealing, diving in front of my guns causing me to killshooter myself, shooting at a enemy after I've shot a wing or tail off.
(this is part of the reason I like to "announce" kills on range, let people know he's down or dieing)
Guys who are known to prefer flying in a 3 + swarm or horde. Or guys who are just plain nasty on voice, etc

I see one of these guys show up and I'm looking for another spot on the map to fly.

Everyone over time develops his own set of ethics, and over time this significantly impacts your reputation.

By the same token, worry not too much about what others think.
And if you just killed them, ignore anything they have to say other than a <S>.
Its really not worth listening to.

I do like to <S> anyone I've killed. It takes some of the sting of dieing out for them, and costs me nothing.

If they were truly a worthy adversary, they will get the <S> and some complements. Awesome fight, great moves, good shot, etc.

I always try to be gracious in victory, and humble in defeat. Granted thats an ideal I shoot for not necessarily who I am.
But that is the goal is it not?

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Colonel Ghosth
Malap
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2008, 10:03:33 AM »

What is killshooter?
quote-
"I also keep a list of those who have recently done me dirt.
Kill stealing, diving in front of my guns causing me to killshooter myself,"
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2008, 11:07:06 AM »

In the main arena's if you shoot a friendly you take the damage. Killshooter is on

In Special Events, Snapshots and Friday Squad Operations Killshooter is off so you have to be VERY careful about where you shoot. If you hit a friendly you can shoot down a team mate or squadie. Smiley

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Murdr
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2008, 06:14:51 PM »

Here is an audio clip I put together from a past con Hitech's thoughts on vulching

I will vulch anytime the opportunity presents itself.  I even vulch with 5" rockets from outside of ack range.  I've even caught HT himself on the runway.  The exception is during off peak when I see that vulching would cause your perspective enemies to evaporate.  In that case I'll let them up.

Ghosth, you've been holding out on us.  I don't think I've ever seen such a long post on the help and training board  laugh
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Kansas2
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2008, 07:14:49 PM »


Ghosth, you've been holding out on us.  I don't think I've ever seen such a long post on the help and training board  laugh

Half way thru I scrolled down to see how long it was! laugh  I did read it all and found it informative. Thanks Ghosth  icon_salut
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Ghosth
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« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 06:12:30 AM »

Feel free to repost it murdr, perhaps under "ethics" ?

Grin

Captive audience here, I get away with being a bit more long winded.
Also I don't have the TA Corp equivalent of Widewing critiquing everything I say.

Or maybe I do. Smiley
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Colonel Ghosth
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« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 09:17:13 AM »

LOL
You should get ghosth on the phone Murdr.  He will bend your ear for a while. angel12

He has some lengthy informative posts and a variety of subjects over the years. He is also really good at chewing my butt out when I need it. Wink

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