TRAINING FILM -- "What Went Wrong #1"

[Simaril]

I've been knocking this idea around for a while, and I'm just getting around to actually doing it. I'm going to try to film some engagements specifically to show how to do, or how not to do, parts of air combat. I'm looking to break the big challenge of fighting into smaller parts, so those who are newer to combat can pick up information in manageable chunks. I want to avoid the "here's a really good film, watch the whole thing" approach -- because when I was a fledgling, I personally didn't learn lots from them even though I found those films very impressive to watch.

I'm targeting these at guys trying to get started with ACM. The vets will likely find them less helpful -- though I'd be eager to see what pointers I can get from YOU

Now, some disclaimers. I am not an ace, and I am not a Great Pilot. I am, however, a student of the game...and I tend to both (over?)analyze things, and to enjoy passing along what I've learned. I come from a "See One -- Do One -- Teach One" learning tradition, and all I promise with this series is to try to stay one step ahead of what I'm presenting. In my experience, I learn more by sitting in the cockpit a couple times, and using the saved views to see what the player was seeing. The external views and the "trail" options can be helpful add ons, but I'd suggest you not start there. With time, try viewing the film as if YOU were the pilot, controlling the views and seeing how you do at maintaining visability. If you're really into it. consider going as far as moving your own controllers as the film unfolds, since that can help you see where one of us can learn new stuff.


I'd love to see these threads turn into tactical discussions, and since there arent really any right or wrong answers we Mongrels can help each other see the advantages and disadvantages of various approaches.

SO.....

Here's the first fight. The film can be found HERE:  http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/889_1175048228_whatwentwrongnumberone.ahf


A few thoughts for the newer guys:

1. Why do you think I rejected the first pass, and decided to extend to reset the engagement? Did that decision help me, or hurt me?

2. Who gained the advantage on the second merge?

3. My opponent, maybe thinking my first pass extension meant I was a timid runner, went for the HO. Notice that my different choice on the merge did 2 things -- it made his HO attempt miss, with no pings landed; and it made sure that my climb into a loop gave me a huge positional advantage.

4. Notice that once I was on his 6, he made a very bad decision by going vertical. That meant I had good visibility, closing ranges, and great firing angles inside his climb. What choices might have been better?

[Dichodog]

seems like as good a time to post this as any but I had a wild idea the other day.  What about having an accomplished stick like sim, daddog, ghosth, outlaw, rowdy, etc.. join an newer guy like myself and another accomplished stick play the adversary in either the DA or on a 8 player setup?  Two seat trainers are nothing new and having a good sticks view of what the newer guys see during a training session might help. 

I know we're all busy but it's worth a thought.

Sim I'll be watching this tomorrow.

[Tsnow]

Simaril,

I appreciate any help widening my combat knowledge. AH is my first flight Sim. And I am learning there is a lot to learn. My main problem at the moment is to take what I have been taught and transfer it to practical use in game.
Please let me know if my observations are off, or if I missed something.

1. Why do you think I rejected the first pass, and decided to extend to reset the engagement? Did that decision help me, or hurt me?

Two reasons come to mind, first to avoid a possible HO, and second was to set the advantage, He had to slow
down. while you continued to build speed?

2. Who gained the advantage on the second merge?

You did. With altitude ?

3. My opponent, maybe thinking my first pass extension meant I was a timid runner, went for the HO. Notice that my different choice on the merge did 2 things -- it made his HO attempt miss, with no pings landed; and it made sure that my climb into a loop gave me a huge positional advantage. 

It still looked like a dangerous merge with only luck saving you from a ping or two. Can you explain how this maneuver protected your plane from harm.
After your second merge he turns to the left and down, back in front of you. Would turning to his right, and up have been a better choice for him there?

4. Notice that once I was on his 6, he made a very bad decision by going vertical. That meant I had good visibility, closing ranges, and great firing angles inside his climb. What choices might have been better?

Diving to the deck Attempt to extend and re engage. At one point he was, and would have gotten away with. I truly do not understand what he was attempting to do. It looked to me like he was offering himself.



Dichodog,

A few of us newer guys, Macviper, Tictok, Bison, and myself, are spending more and more time in the DA. We are doing just what you are describing. Although without the benefit of an accomplished stick.


Tsnow <S>

[Dichodog]

I'm generally in the TA if I'm online and there's nobody in AVA.  I'll try to join up with you guys tonight. 

[Simaril]

TSnow:

I would love to be part of that DA stuff. When do you guys do your dueling? I'll try to be there if I can.

I don't have the skills of Murdr or Widewing -- but I have learned a lot, and I like to pass that on. I was exactly where you are, snow -- this is my first ever online sim, and I dont have the background that many of those guys have. And, I don't have the natural gaming ability that lets many young 'uns jump right in and succeed. So, I've been a student of the game, picking up concepts and skills as I can.

It's been a long road for me, and I'd love to shorten the path for others. You guys, working together and seeking out advice, are way ahead of my stubborn independence way back when --- you'll do well.





In other teaching situations, I've found that there's a lot to be gained by at least thinking about the problems before having the answers handed to me. I've got some answers for your questions, TSnow, but since this hasnt even been up for a day I want to give some of the other newer guys a chance to process the fight before I start talking....


Oh, and there's that annoying "I'm at work and there's stuff on my desk that I should be doing" thing too....
I'll check back later.

[Dichodog]

Sims too humble. He's a good teacher and I think hes a very good stick. 

[Simaril]

OK, cleaned a little off the desk.

I want to make a couple illustrations, will have to do that when i get home. Till then, Snow, think about this:

The problem I saw with the first merge wasnt the HO -- as you saw at the second merge, if I do things right he CAN'T hurt me (usually) with a HO. As for the speed difference, well, you're on the right track...remember that I had to reverse too, so in the end it should have evened out.

Instead, think about the difference in ANGLES. The first pass, if I accepted the fight I would have given him an advantage I didnt want to give away. The second merge, my starting position was much better. Watch the film again, and see if you can pick out the crucial difference in position.

[Tsnow]

On the initial merge you were both Co-alt ?

The second merge you were below and off to the right of him. It still appears to me if he'd had of manipulated the rudder a bit more he might off tinged your plane.

I can't see how you "made" him miss on the second HO. If it was me I'd be flying home in my Swisscheese Stuka.

So much to absorb.

Tsnow <S>

[Simaril]

TO make this clear, I'm gonna need to use some diagrams. So we'll have to stay on the holding pattern till then. But, you're seeing the right things about the merge. The pictures will explain WHY the alt difference matters so much at merge.

About the "HO that wasnt" -- watch the second merge from inside the cockpit, but instead of looking just through the canopy set your view so you can see the stck. Watch what I do when closing, right before he'd start firing.

Then, when you know what to look for, use outside view, icons on, and trail turned on.

[Simaril]

OK, TSnow.

Let's look at the merge stepwise, but as we do it we'll introduce a couple concepts.

The biggest thing you can do to gain an advantage in merging is to get a step ahead of the opponent...with a LEAD TURN As in "lead the target." The idea is the same -- aim for where he's GOING to be instead of where he is.

Let's apply that to a horizontal turn. I've stolen this image from Robert Shaw's Fighter Combat. (It's a great book, but I tried to read it too early...honestly, work on the practical for a yer or two uinless you're an engineer. If you're a book learner, this is the ABSOLUTE Bible of ACM, literally written by and for combat fighter pilots. No kidding, the real deal...)



Notice that in Case One, the attacker starts turning BEFORE he gets to the enemy. His plan is to get position to be ready for the enemy when he flies by. At time "1" the attacker starts to turn. The defender sees that at his time "1", but foolishly just tries to keep pointed at where the attacker IS, instead of where he will be. Since that amounts to always aiming right at him, some call that "gunsight maneuvering". What makes this so terrible is that the gunsight maneuver sacrifices position and energy, but gains nothing -- because the bullets need to be shot AHEAD oif the moving target if they're going to hit at all.

Anyway, by taking the lead turn the attacker "appears" on the defenders 6. The defender keeps steering to point at the attacker, but will always lose since he's always dealing with what happened last second, not what's happening now.

And that's why the HO is always a loser. The HO attack sacrifices position and energy for a shot that will always miss, since it doesn't allow for proper "lead." Look at the diagram. The arrow marked "defender" is essentially flying the HO attacker's flight path, always pointed at the plane marked "attacker". The defender is trying to get a shot, but the attacker's lead turn means that the angle the defender needs for his HO continuously changes, and the closer he gets the faster the angle changes. A properly timed lead turn makes the HO attack simply impossible.

Now we usually think of lead turns horizontally, but the same concept works vertically, with the only difference being that the "turn" becomes an Immelman climb, the front half of a loop. I didn't like the postion on the first merge because if he was a good pilot and we both did the Immel, his lower position would give him an angle and energy advantage. (On the merge, a general rule is that "lower is better" -- but explaining that is another topic.)

On the second merge, he tried to HO, but he couldnt get even one ping because I timed the lead turn Immel right. I went vertical, and since his HO made him turn way later than I did, I was in position to react to wherever he went and pounce on him.

The fight was over as soon as we merged, and he made the mistake of HOing. He did a low turn, which burns up more energy than my high one (another topic for later), and I was even farther ahead of the game. I popped on his 6, and it was over.


His attempt to climb had to fail, because I had more energy and my plane zoom (momentum) climbs better than his, and because the climbing target is both slowing down and not flying away from its attacker. When we dove he tried to get me to overshoot, even dropping his gear at one point, but like many moves that rely on your opponent screwing up, it only made things worse when the opponent didnt screw up.

[Tsnow]

Simaril,

 I tried to watch the stick movements during the film but it doesn't appear to move.

The term Lead Turn is throwing me for a loop, . I have a relay hard time judging direction, and speed, as well as altitude. My only combat strategy is "Try and Stay Alive."

  Before the second merge did you assume he would Ilmmel? I am still unsure why you avoided the first merge Could you not have dove under him and lead turn just as easy as you did for the second merge? what was the difference? it looks like you were aiming for his tail. Hoping to turn and loop up over him. I must admit most of this is way above my understanding

I really appreciate this Sim.

Tsnow <S>

[Simaril]

Bummer. I thought the stick movement carried through into the films. You might be able to pick it up with fixed or external view, watching the airelons and rudder themselves.


On the term "lead turn"....first, just the be clear, this is "lead" pronunced "leed", not the metal "pronounced "led". You know that, just being thorough for clarity....

OK, imagine a skeet shooter. The target gts spit out from that machine, and the disc flies through the air. To hit it, the shooter needs to "lead the target" by shooting AHEAD of where the target is, antiicipating where it WILL BE.

That's what we mean by a "lead turn." You're moving in advance of the target getting there, anticipating where he will be in a second or two and getting position for what's coming.

The diagram is looking at the horizontal plane, with flat turns. Imagine looking on the fight from above. Each plane in that diagram will execute its turn by rolling 90 degrees (wings now pointing toward ground, cockpit pointing toward the turn direction), and then by pulling back on the stick. In "Case One" the attacker uses the lead turn technique effectively. He knows that the enemy will be past the attackers aircraft, behind him, after they pass each other (the merge). So, the attacker "leads the target" by starting to turn before the target even gets to the attacker.

And in the film, I started to "lead the target" by pulling up into the half loop hundreds of meters before the P-38 got to me.

For the diagram, and in the film, the lead turn gives the attacker a position advantage -- before the turn/loop, the fight is even with both planes nose to nose. After the turn, the attacker has his nose pointed at the defenders tail, and the attacker is clearly in the driver's seat.


So that's the lead turn concept. Has that explanation helped? Once we get that concept down, we'll go on to the situation in the film.

[Tsnow]

Sim,

I think my little under two months experience is just not enough for me to understand the lesson you are trying to teach.
I still am unsure why you did not attempt a lead turn on the first merge. What did you really gain by separating?
As for the lead turn....You are trying to get to where he is going to be next by diving under him and looping over. Did you assume he would also loop? Did his doing a low turn help or hinder your Lead turn.

Perhaps in a couple more months I might have enough stick and SA experience to actually Understand.

Thanks

Tsnow<S>

[Dichodog]

don't get frustrated Tsnow I've been working with sim off and on for 9 months now and I still have trouble with all of the nuances (as you've probably seen in the TA). 

A few months back I got really FRUSTRATED because initially my progress came in leaps and bounds then leveled off then tapered off.  I almost chucked my stick and went back to my old boring friendless life.  In all honesty some peoples personal tragedies that showed me how the community and particularly this squad stopped me from walking away like that. 

My mind set now is to give myself two, count them two YEARS, to become even what I'd consider marginally good at this game.  From this tutorial I can take these maneuvers into offline mode and practice conserving energy while attaining position in any given aircraft (I'm sticking to spit VIII and P51D right now).  When I feel like I'm doing okay against drones I go into the TA and find anybody I can to do a mini duel with and practice some more.  I figure one day everything will come together and the complicated concepts will become second nature.

Most importantly have FUN.  I used to be embarassed and a little upset when I worked for a kill, then lost e, and got killed myself.  Now I just laugh <S> the other guy, run the film, and try to get it ingrained in my subconscious what not to do next time.

One last thing.  The thing I find currently most rewarding in game for me is to pass on some of my limited knowledge to someone REALLY new and see them progress to where they're having success in the arenas.

[Tsnow]

Dichodog,

I'm not getting frustrated, Just don't want Sim wasting his time trying to teach me something that may be above my understanding at the moment.
As for chucking the stick...not yet. I am having to much fun flying with the new friends I have made. I am kind of a loner in the Real World. So it's really nice for me to log on and have someone to talk to.

I am also spending a lot more time Offline working my gunnery, trying to take the drones apart piece by piece.
I do appreciate everything everyone has been trying to teach me. with a little Patience, and a lot of time, I might actually learn something.

Tsnow <S>

[Dichodog]

frustrated may be the wrong word but I remember reading on netaces and some of sims and other guys writeups and feeling like I was reading the textbook on partical physics.  Like I said before I just read what sim is saying and I'm still not totally grasping everything but I'm getting about 70%.  But I'm kind of dense like that. 

By the way if you ever want to do something goofy to blow off steam offline get you a map with a port, get in a pt boat and go sink a friendly CV.  I did that one afternoon for about two hours giggling like two year old with a new power ranger toy

By the way.. I'm Barry... nice to have you on board 

[Tsnow]

 When our tensions mount in the MA we head over to the DA.
It's a lot more fun being blown up by your buddies than a total stranger.
If you ever care to join us, Our Vox is tuned to 232, and we fly from 23 and 24 unless it's occupied.

And it's good to meet you Barry. My name is Brad, and it is really nice to be aboard   


Tsnow <S>

[mrmidi]

Hey tsnow. don't know if you seen theis post in another topic called "Art of The kill"

But the video really does help explain BFM..( Basic Fighter Manuvers).

It's an hour long vidoe but very mich worth the time to listen to the guy...

Middog

(edit forgot to post the link...lol)

here's the link
http://332nd.org/forum/index.php?topic=2922.0

[Blutik]

In the Aces High Film viewer, watch the Altitude and the speed of both pilots.
At the merge and when Sim gets his first hits on enemy.
Just my 2 cents.
Blutik 

[Simaril]

Sim,

I think my little under two months experience is just not enough for me to understand the lesson you are trying to teach.
I still am unsure why you did not attempt a lead turn on the first merge. What did you really gain by separating?
As for the lead turn....You are trying to get to where he is going to be next by diving under him and looping over. Did you assume he would also loop? Did his doing a low turn help or hinder your Lead turn.

Perhaps in a couple more months I might have enough stick and SA experience to actually Understand.

Thanks

Tsnow<S>

Only ahve a few minutes, so can't cover everything you brought up.

First, do NOT sell yourself short. When there's an overwhelming task (like ACM) underway, dont even THINK about "learning it." Instead, look to pick up ONE point or idea each time. If you get more than that, fine. The only real mistake, IMHO, is to get overwhelmed , throw up your hands, and stop trying. It's pretty much proven that learning a complex field takes years of work, but it doesnt take genius to get good at it...just persistance and determination. Check this thread out: http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=195688My big regret about my first 2 years is that I was too self reliant -- I wish I had gotten more help earlier, and more often.

So do not feel bad at all. And Dicho, don't stop getting training sessions...keep practicing, keep trying to pick new stuff up. The biggest mistake we humans make is to keep MAKING the same mistakes, instead of figuring out where the problem is coming from.

Anyway, TSnow, I havent looked at the film for a couple days. But during that engagement, at full speed, here's what I saw.

The P-38 was roughly Co-alt, but I couldnt get a read on his speed. I chose to fly towards him to control the engagement better, and rely less on what he decided to do. My real time assessment (which often turns out to be wrong when you look at the film) saw him head towards me, but I remember him getting more than a little bit lower than me as we approached...and maybe off to one side. I rejected the merge, adn decided to extend, because I was afraid he could use those "separations" in path to get either an energy or angle advantage from me.

Here's why: Assume both have the same speed to start with. If he's a lot lower than me at merge, and we both Immel, he doesnt have to pull as hard as I do to end up at the same altitude. In other words, think about our Immels as giant "C" s. He can pull a softer C and still be even with me at the top, so he wouldnt burn as much energy getting there. That gives away an energy advantage...and a good pilot can cash that in for a kill. that's especially true with this matchup, since his plane does MUCH better than mine at very low speed maneuvering in the vertical. To win, assuming he doesnt make a mistake, I have to use my speed much better than he does.

Gotta go...I'm late.....

[Dichodog]

you know I won't Sim... being able to actually actively schedule something is, as always, the problem.. <S>

[Simaril]

OK after watching the film again -- reminds me that what we think we "see" isnt always what happened. The altitude difference wasnt as much as I thought it was during the fight, on that first pass. I also had a big speed advantage, but I didn't get the read on that in the merge. It's a problem when coming into a fight with a fresh contact -- you can't judge energy well because you're both pretty quick, closing fast, and have nearly the same alt. (I remember thinking I PROBABLY had a speed advantage because I was fairly close to his base, and I was *betting* that he was in "climbing to grab alt" mode instead of combat mode; I had been cru9ising around for a fight and so had more speed.)

Good to remember that when you see somebody's film, you're probably looking at the best that guy's gunna do -- so don't let it intimidate you. Even experienced sticks make mistakes, and I made mistakes reading the fight at first.

Also shows evidence of my conservative, energy oriented flight style. It's probably my personality, but when I fly I tend to be very methodical, almost plodding. In this fight you can see that I'm not racing for the kill. When I watch it, it's almost like I'm slowly painting him into a corner, until he has just no where else to go. Each move increases my edge, either in better angles, closer to his 6 -- or in potential (so I can cash in on  a later pass, will a killing blow). If I didnt see that shot, I tended to use the vertical (a loop, a barrel roll, a yo yo) to keep my alt/speed advantage while I waited for the kill to show itself. If he turned tighter than me, I went up; If he dove, I could outdive him with ease (Corsair RULZ); and when he went up, the big heavy Corsair had so much momentum...well, it was time to cash in that potential energy for the kill shot.


And I am waaayyy to methodical - its my strength, but also my weakness. One time in TA with Schatzi, I got the advantage and worked postion down to where I was able to blast away. When I asked for tips, she made the best  commentary about my natural fight tendencies I've ever heard -- "you made these beautiful loops and rolls, but you need to be thinking 'Get in there and KILL HER'"!!  Unfortunately, I still have to work on that attitude.


So don't think about copying what I do, or what anyone else does. Find what seems natural to you....and use stuff like this to pick up tidbits here and there that you can apply to your style when you fly.

[Dichodog]

stalling, being blown up, crashing, and burning, seem to come pretty naturally to me

Sorry for bailing last night Sim.  I had waited and waited until everything was settled down, no sooner did I get a line on that high pony I hear 'hey honey there's water all over the kitchen floor'

Someone turned over the dog bowl 

[Tsnow]

Hey tsnow. don't know if you seen theis post in another topic called "Art of The kill"

But the video really does help explain BFM..( Basic Fighter Manuvers).

It's an hour long vidoe but very mich worth the time to listen to the guy...

Middog

(edit forgot to post the link...lol)

here's the link
http://332nd.org/forum/index.php?topic=2922.0

Mddog,

Thanks for the link I took the time last night to watch it and I found it very helpful. I plan on watching it at least one more time.

You have all been so helpful.

One of the first lessons I learned was to quit looking at the big picture. Take small digestible bites of knowledge. I quit trying to kill,
and focused my flying on not being killed. I greatly improved. I kind of forgot at that point that not only should I be trying to stay alive,
I should also be trying to absorb the combat around me.
To be honest in combat my mind seams to shut off and my hands and eyes take over. It's only after the battle that I think...Oh man
When I did that he did this..I ain't gonna do that again, but I still do.
As for looking at my films I tend to miss a lot, basically because I really don't know what I should be looking for. But every now and then
flying with Ghosth in the TA or watching my evenings films a light bulb will go off, and the next day I will attempt to do the maneuver that would of worked on film. But as you know nothing is ever the same every fight is diffrent, and I find myself again switching off my mind and letting my hands take over. (Most of the time I'm humming the 007 theme)
But I do see improvement, and I owe most of it to those who have taken the time to share what they have already learned.
And for that I am grateful.


Tsnow <S>

[Simaril]

Here's another really good link:

http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf

The PDF version of the free book "In Pursuit", which was written by a sim pilot. It has some great images, and does a good job of teaching basics and intermediates. I will likely "borrow" some of his illustrations in the future...

but this is much more accessable than many resources I've seen.